tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post6093685733127903259..comments2024-03-25T20:55:48.523+00:00Comments on Didcot Wargames Club: North East Open Tournament Battle Report: Game 3- Deathwatch vs Imperial Knights/Astra MilitarumMike (Didcot Wargames Club)http://www.blogger.com/profile/04136576868354842829noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-29452651739682424442019-03-25T09:29:41.081+00:002019-03-25T09:29:41.081+00:00I did come armed for Knights, or so I thought with...I did come armed for Knights, or so I thought with my list. I had the Lascannons, missile launchers and Meltaguns in the various squads. The problem is that Deathwatch don't have the most points-efficient anti-tank weaponry. The infantry cannot access Lascannons, they are only available on the vehicles. <br />In addition, single shot anti-tank weapons are not the best to deal with Knights. Against a 3+ invulnerable save, you are essentially losing two thirds of your successful wounds, so you need a ton of firepower to stand a chance of taking them out in a single turn. This is very points inefficient for the Deathwatch (or Marines in general). <br /><br />The Storm Bolter/Storm Shield units are very strong. Unfortunately, against Knights, you are only wounding on a 6+. One unit gets to use the stratagem, but even wounding on a 5+ you are struggling to do much damage. More storm shields on the squad would be a good idea, giving you better survivability against the weaponry of the Knights, I just haven't had time to paint them up and add them to the squads. Mike (Didcot Wargames Club)https://www.blogger.com/profile/04136576868354842829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-31154253824465108922019-03-25T02:59:23.379+00:002019-03-25T02:59:23.379+00:00I have talked with you before and love reading you...I have talked with you before and love reading your blog. Did you build any knight killing units into your list when going to the tornament? When building your army I only saw one lascannon unit and very little melta. You know you are going to need to prepare for knights. Maybe a few more lascannons. Or a twin lascannon contemptor? I know I see a lot of the chaplain contemptors mortis dreadnoughts. Is there a null zone you can drop in. I know you lament losing to knights but what realistically do you have to kill them. Also I admit I play mostly tournament style games but why not more cheap Storm Bolter/thunder shield vets. That seems the staple of most deathwatch. I used to be a more fluffy player however when going to a tournament you have to adjust your list somewhat. I think you could drop the missile launchers and heavy bolters (unless you have maybe mortal wound strats). Missile launchers are the old jack of all trades master of none, not very good at killing vehicles not very good at killing troops. You really only need stormbolters with your special ammunition. Maybe optimize your veteran squads a little more. Two point storm shields are awesome. Go ahead shoot your volcano cannon at me you killed one marine. Just a few observations take them for what they are worth. Thanks for the battle reports I love reading yoursswanson4969https://www.blogger.com/profile/12102138994499485582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-87971059398842411272019-03-23T15:56:37.461+00:002019-03-23T15:56:37.461+00:00Yeah, I remember you mentioning that on facebook. ...Yeah, I remember you mentioning that on facebook. I'm not one for conceding at all, I feel you should always play out games but I can see why you would concede when you did, it definitely wasn't going to be a fun game. Conceding when your on top table is another matter entirely and a very poor show as far as I'm concerned, even if it was done to be gracious to your opponent.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07412304888734273336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-31714335111901688892019-03-23T14:42:48.892+00:002019-03-23T14:42:48.892+00:00It really is a shame. I enjoy going to tournaments...It really is a shame. I enjoy going to tournaments to play new opponents and have some tough games of 40k. However, there is a big difference between a tough game and an impossible to win game. Unfortunately, I seem to be ranging into the latter much more than I would like at recent tournaments. Mike (Didcot Wargames Club)https://www.blogger.com/profile/04136576868354842829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-62060386343690481462019-03-23T14:41:37.696+00:002019-03-23T14:41:37.696+00:00Yeah, I did feel a bit bad about conceding in turn...Yeah, I did feel a bit bad about conceding in turn 1, but I was going to have very little fun in just removing the rest of my army from the board in my second turn and having no hope of winning the game. <br /><br />The tournament was won by a Deathwatch and Astra Militarum army. He faced the double Castellan list that I played in game 2. However, as I will discuss in the later post, the only reason he won was that his opponent decided to concede on what was a very close game in order to gift him the tournament win. That didn't sit right with me. Mike (Didcot Wargames Club)https://www.blogger.com/profile/04136576868354842829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-35439271314843553362019-03-23T14:38:50.387+00:002019-03-23T14:38:50.387+00:00Agreed, the Castellan is ridiculously cheap for wh...Agreed, the Castellan is ridiculously cheap for what it can do. It pretty much invalidates running vehicles or monsters in most armies, as they will just fall in the first turn. Mike (Didcot Wargames Club)https://www.blogger.com/profile/04136576868354842829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-37382230731338373882019-03-23T00:47:19.020+00:002019-03-23T00:47:19.020+00:00The main times they're fun to play against are...The main times they're fun to play against are when it's Knights vs. Knights, or when it's a prearranged narrative game, probably with some House Rules.WestRiderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10221228665636182019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-80639140896055707322019-03-22T23:47:31.766+00:002019-03-22T23:47:31.766+00:00Nail in the coffin for 40k tournaments?
I now exc...Nail in the coffin for 40k tournaments?<br /><br />I now exclusively play 40k fluffy and casual now (if at all tbh). You should dip your toe into Warhammer Underworlds. It’s great NafNafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15788927908701998169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-90595411730006136612019-03-22T19:36:55.882+00:002019-03-22T19:36:55.882+00:00I've read and heard quite a few people complai...I've read and heard quite a few people complaining about knights and to be honest, quite a few of them just seem to be blaming knights for there own poor play or tactics. I've followed you for long enough to know that this isn't the case here, although I do have to question throwing in the towel at the end of turn one. To me it shows a lack of commitment but I also agree with your assessment of the situation, there was very little you could have done to avoid a tabling. <br /><br />For me, knights need a price hike, they are under costed and over powered right now. Kill points are also a problem and something I don't like in games. Kill points can unbalance a game considerably, as there are very few occasions that I can think of where both players have had the same number of units. Most games where I run my guard infantry list, I outnumber my opponent around 2 to 1, sometimes even more so and as such favours my opponent. <br /><br />Unless there is some serious changes, people will continue to run knights in numbers, as they win games. <br /><br />Any idea who won this and the last tournament? Was it a knights list or not? I'd be interested to know. I really hope that the next tournament you go to you have better luck with your opponent's armies, as much for the battle reports as for your own enjoyment!Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07412304888734273336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-85932843632833340552019-03-22T17:29:18.605+00:002019-03-22T17:29:18.605+00:00In my opinion its the castellan that is the most d...In my opinion its the castellan that is the most damaging aspect of the knight meta we are currently in. (I tend to run a knight atrapos to deal with them but he costs more points than one of those monsters.)<br /><br />They needed a points increase in CA but nothing happened and we still see them everywhere.Tyrantropehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13334046769017411538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-86324413266993018962019-03-22T16:33:52.025+00:002019-03-22T16:33:52.025+00:00True. You don't want to see them nerfed into o...True. You don't want to see them nerfed into oblivion, as people spent time and money on them and want to play them. However, I just don't think they are fun to play against at all. Mike (Didcot Wargames Club)https://www.blogger.com/profile/04136576868354842829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-14303773672264482362019-03-22T16:33:07.232+00:002019-03-22T16:33:07.232+00:00I think Deathwatch struggle to deal with Knights i...I think Deathwatch struggle to deal with Knights in general. They don't have cheap anti-tank options on their infantry (only missile launchers and meltaguns), all the Lascannons are on vehicles, which are easily taken out by the Knights. <br />They can do a bit better in combat, but only with the Smash Captain. <br /><br />The terrain also didn't help a huge amount. There was plenty of line of sight blocking for infantry and regular vehicles, but the height of the Knights meant they could see over most of it. <br /><br />I think Soup helps the Knight armies, but there are still incredibly strong on the tabletop. Especially with kill points and end of game objectives as the only victory conditions. Mike (Didcot Wargames Club)https://www.blogger.com/profile/04136576868354842829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-5616713312249360162019-03-22T13:50:27.112+00:002019-03-22T13:50:27.112+00:00Yeah, Knights are frustrating. On the one hand, I ...Yeah, Knights are frustrating. On the one hand, I really like them, because big stompy robot battle suits are cool, but on the other hand, they horribly distort any attempt at remotely competitive play, and just completely invalidate huge swathes of Units and Army lists. I really don't know what to do about it at this point, since the genie is out of the bottle, and any nerf that's sufficiently strong would probably hurt GW's sales significantly as well.WestRiderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10221228665636182019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-13451187175609862732019-03-22T12:45:14.056+00:002019-03-22T12:45:14.056+00:00Sorry to hear about the tough match ups for you.
...Sorry to hear about the tough match ups for you.<br /><br />Knights are causing a bit of an issue at the moment. I played one the other week and couldn’t do anything about it.<br /><br />1. Is it a knight issue or a “soup”. If they used mono-codex would knights still cause an issue?<br />2. Is it a bad match up, your army selection/mission combo made it bad<br />3. Board/terrain issues? Enough LOS blocking, enough blocking terrain<br />4. Game size. Is 2k too many points for matched play?<br /><br />I think soup in general is something in matched play that needs to be looked at:<br /><br />Some ideas I have are:<br />1. Battalions to have at least 1 FA, 1Elite and 1HS (it makes these CP generators slightly more expensive)<br />2. Only stratagems/relics can be used/chosen from warlord codex<br />3. Events are happy to use their own mission, why not say this must be a mono codex event?<br />4. Is there anything you could have run differently in your list? It was likely you would face an knight list were you prepared for it?<br />5. 2k for events is too many points. Games take too long so unlikely to get to turn 5-7 and 2k allows you to cover all your bases in your army. 1750 or even as low as 1500 makes army selection a lot harder. Would knights work as well at 1500?<br />I think GW still have a bit to do with matched play and this is way to play is likely to be the one that needs the most updates. It’s still early in the 8th ed life cycle and seeing to how GW are responding to AOS I expect the same for 40k in due course<br />toonboy78https://www.blogger.com/profile/06032744373751739974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-71777687486805637192019-03-22T09:30:20.816+00:002019-03-22T09:30:20.816+00:00I'm not sure what the solve is either, other t...I'm not sure what the solve is either, other than a big points increase. If they get ignored again in the big FAQ and errata, I will not be happy. <br /><br />It's hard to know what to do, as many casual players like running their Knights and you don't want to punish them for what is going on at tournament. However, even in casual games, I hate going up against Knights, as they are such a pain to play against. Mike (Didcot Wargames Club)https://www.blogger.com/profile/04136576868354842829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2668255476316917252.post-51195491347439279352019-03-22T09:11:34.937+00:002019-03-22T09:11:34.937+00:00You're not alone in feeling this way about Kni...You're not alone in feeling this way about Knights, I'm sure! <br /><br />Hard to know how to fix it, though. They are clearly entertaining to play as (part of the problem), they're a great model to own and paint and GW obviously enjoys selling them! I agree completely on their armour and invuln saves, that makes something already hard to kill virtually impregnable. <br /><br />I'd see them go the same way as Flyers - entirely unable to hold objectives, and if there's nothing else in your army you can't hold the table. Hard to justify it from a fluff point of view, maybe, and it would certainly anger a lot of Knight players! But it might redress the balance a bit. <br /><br />Otherwise you'd want to see equivalent options made readily available to all armies. Most other armies have nothing that's non-Forge World, for example. Kraken Wakeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11675999641597167636noreply@blogger.com